Cretaceous Carnage #6

For me it's not the weight it's it reach. Tyrannosaurs aren't very agile because if how robust the are and add in the fact that a Theriznosaurus has 11 foot arms with 3 foot claws on the end... that gives it a hiting range of 14 feet.  

For one thing, I estimate Daspletosaurus at 8-10 meters long and 3-4 tons and Therizinosaurus at 10-11 meters long and 3-5 tons, so there's not that much of a size difference in my opinion. Anyways, I see those claws as somewhat fragile structures not suited for heavy combat. They could cause minor injuries, but nothing overly serious. The Daspletosaurus is faster and more agile, with an immense bite force and large teeth(6-7 inches long). I think that'd be plenty.

Anyways, I see those claws as somewhat fragile structures not suited for heavy combat.

Do you have a paper stating that? I don't see them used in 'heavy combat' but as a self defense measure? you betchya. Those claws undoubted had enough force behind them to cause major lacerations. Not to mention it's dealing with a creature that's around half its weight. Which brings me to my next point, where do you get a 4 ton daspletosaurus from?

Also, i hope you know that 6/7 inches of tooth isn't exposed in the mouth, most of that is root. Das had an exposed tooth lenght of three, maybe four inches.

Das being heavily built, wouldn't probably have a major speed advantage over the herbivore, maybe a little one but not much.

There claws are not truly meant for fighting like a theropod'sclaws. And daspletosaurus bite force would inflict major wounds on the therizenosaurs. Daspletosaurus was much more agile then the herbivore.

I remember reading somewhere(admittidly I can't remember exactly) of a Daspletosaurus specimen nicknamed Pete that was possibly 35 ft. I found that a bit high, so I personally gave Daspletosaurus a max size of 33 ft(4 tons being the corresponding weight). You're right, Daspletosaurus is robust, but did you see the legs and pot belly of Therizinosaurus?

Even a Daspletosaurus would be a lot more agile than that...

As far as the claws not being suited for heavy combat(I see them being used in food gathering), they're just too thin...

Even with a keratin covering, they wouldn't be all that thick or robust.

Plus you must keep in mind Daspletosaurus was built to take on dangerous prey. It hunted ankylosaurs and ceratopsians, plus it had to compete with the ever present Albertosaurus and Gorgosaurus.

I agree with that.

yes, they weren't used for "fighting" but for defensive measures? there's no doubt, claiming otherwise is just baseless speculation. Therizinosaur claws also have a structure comparable to extant animals that use them for defense. I can see them used in food gathering as well, but taking a swat from one of those arms is going to send you away bloodied and or bruised, if not outright kill you. You don't seem to be grasping the idea that, even it they were used for food gathering, they were sharp. And had a 4.5/ 5 ton animal brandishing them, not to mention the animal attacking is much smaller then it.

And in general, Tyrannosaurs weren't very adept at killing things much larger then themselves; as is the case with this match-up. Yes, Das took on dangerous game, but was it substaintially larger then it? nope. Maybe the ankylosaurs/ ceratopsians it lived with weighed in the same ballpark, but not double the weight of this tyrannosaur. Nor were the substaintally taller, or have length arms ending in sharp claws. The only way i see Das killing a Therizino is by ambush, and even then it's not guaranteed.

I just see no evidence on how a tyrannosaur is going to kill an animal with 11 foot arms, tipped with three foot claws, and a weight advantage by a factor of two.

And I see no evidence as why it couldn't. Can you just accept that? If not, then we have a serious problem.

No tyrranosaurs could kill much larger animals, but this is the exception because  daspletosaurus could handle nothyryncus and even though it is maller then therio it is the same basic body plan that daspletosaurus knew how to deal with. Though this would be a bit harder.

@carnosaur your thinking of a sloth I'm sure and the claws were used for defensive measures like slapping and slashing.

I can accept your idealogy. You constantly trying to push it as fact is where we're gonna have a "serious problem". 

Why so hostile? it's called debate buddy. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Back up your statements with evidence, instead of getting angry with me. Fair nuff?

Look, I feel like your ramming what you have to say down my throat, and you feel the same way about me. So, I think I'm gonna wrap it up here before this goes farther. Fair nuff?

Aww dont close the thread.

I'm refuting your points right and left, you're losing this debate so you're going to lock it? 

that much figures.

The only one going to take it too far is you, i'm trying to have a debate with you and you're getting angry and defensive because, why?

Guys stop !!!!!! 

We sll have our opinions!

Way to go jumping to conclusions. I had no intentions of locking it. I meant I was done. And if you ask me, you didn't refute anything.

PS- if you so desire, here's some articles mentioning Pete 3 the Daspletosaurus...

http://rmdrc.blogspot.com/2012/01/daspletosaurus-prep-update-now-with.html

http://dinosaursanctuary.com/specimens/dinosaurs/theropod/daspletosaurus-torosus-pete-3/

We have opinions, yes. But, this is debate. Your opinion doesn't matter in this circle, hard scientific evidence for your claims does

You're saying we have hard scientific evidence for animals that have been dead for 65 million years? Yeah, that's legit.

By that logic. All we know could be wrong.

I've read about Pete 3, and it's not even certain it's a daspletosaurus at this point.

http://dinosaursanctuary.com/specimens/dinosaurs/theropod/daspletosaurus-torosus-pete-3/

^ from that article..

"  This specimen shows substantial differences from the holotype D. torosus, and may be described as a new species"

Scientific evidence, yes we do have for certain aspects. But i'm not going into this right now.

Therizinosaurus outweighs Daspletosaurus by a factor of two. Better weaponery or not, the smaller Tyrannosaur is outmatched.

These claws may not be perfect for being used as weapons, but they could inflict deep penetrating wounds and give it a very wide swiping range at the smaller opponent. This, coupled with an obvious tremendous strenght advantage, will easily make up for it´s lack of a dangerous bite. 

You appear to not take into the fact Daspletosaurus is over two times smaller then Therizinosaurus, why would you give it the edge? That's what i want to know.

Cause it has the tools to deal with therizenosaurs.

So it's smaller. Doesn't mean it'll lose. Simple as that. A Carcharodontosaurus is smaller than a Spinosaurus. Still can win. A Velociraptor is smaller than a Protoceratops. Still can win. Need I go on?

That's cause the smaller creatures is adapted to take down the large creatures.

A Utahraptor is smaller than an Iguanodon. Utahraptor can still win. The list goes on and on.

Never once did i say it couldn't win, just that it wouldn't win the majority.

Velociraptor/ Protoceratops is a predator/prey relationship, so the answer to that one is pretty much apparent.

Utahraptor/ Iguanodon probable prey - predator relationship as well.

Those aren't good anologies, as they aren't tyrannosaurs. Point me in the direction of showing Tyrannosaurs were capable of killing things significantly larger then themselves, then i'll let it be

In a face to face fight, You can't tell me an animal signifigantly shorter, lighter, and not possessing quite the reach its opponent has is going to win the majority? because...why?

Oh, it's a tyrannosaur, gotcha

Yes, cause they are adapted to kill Them.

No other daspletosaurus would win with a bite to the neck.

its not cause its a tyrranosaurs.

Actually, I'd give the same odds to an Allosaurus, but I doubt you'd believe me.

Das isn't getting the neck unless it jumps. That's evidenced in the size comparison i posted in the first page.

I wouldn't say tyrannosaurs are adapted to kill therizinosaurs, no. Ankylosaurs/ ceratopsians. Youbetcha.

So it takes out the legs and the Therizinosaurus falls. Suddenly the neck's in range. There's more than one way to kill a Therizinosaurus.

Species of tyrannosaurs have been found alongside therizinosaurs in the Zuni Basin and also in Mongolia, so the two species have been found alonside each other.

Oh boy, this ones preety tough. Theres little to argue with about those claws, but then again if Daspletosaurus can get to that skinny neck, its preety well over with.