Rex Fan 684
MemberCompsognathusSep-01-2013 10:11 AMThe predators of North America tended to be more advanced than those in South America and Africa, the primary spinosaur homelands. That may have had something to do with it.
BTW, North America was pretty wet. Keep in mind it was at one point cut in two by the Western Interior Seaway.
"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names."
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Lord Vader
MemberTyrannosaurus RexSep-01-2013 11:19 AMNever really thought that Spino could be too heavy for its legs to support it. Interesting.
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DinoFights
MemberCompsognathusSep-01-2013 1:14 PMThere probably is a limit to having weight on two legs, but we don't know what it is.
Spino could have dealt with the issue by
A.) staying in water a lot of the time
B.) Walking on all fours (they did have very long arms)
C.) Ignoring cope's rule the same way bumble bees do. They're too heavy to fly with such tiny wings, yet they do. Spino could have walked on two legs because cope's rule was made when T. rex was considered the biggest thing ever to walk on two legs.
Recently, footprints have indicated that sauropods could run on two legs for short periods of time.
Spinosaurs went extinct before tyrannosaurs showed up for the most part, so they couldn't have been outcompeted. They went extinct when seas receded and they had to adapt to land and many went extinct. This explains why Spino, having isotopic ratios more adapted for land than the others, survived later than the others. They were eventually outcompeted by carcharodontosaurs who lost their food source (giant sauropods) and went extinct, being surpassed by the abelisaurs, who kept their position in the south, while dromaeosaurs and tyrannosaurs evolved in the predator-free north, crossing from Asia.
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Lord Vader
MemberTyrannosaurus RexSep-01-2013 1:27 PMThat's an interesting point DinoFights. Walking on all fours would limit Spino though. I guess for short periods of time (if it was really heavy, 12 + tons), it could walk on just it's rear legs. It probably did stay in water a lot though.
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Deltadromeus
MemberCompsognathusSep-01-2013 2:04 PMSpinosaurus has arms that are, what, 6, 7 feet long? I forgot. Anyways, it really couldn't walk on all fours. Its fron legs aren't long enough. Now just because the hadrosaurs have front legs doesn't mean that all dinosaurs with very long arms can. It is 20 feet tall at the hips, so its arms might stretch halfway down, but its hips and overall body isn't made like a hadrosaur with very tall hips and a torso closer to to ground. As for the sauropods running, I doubt it. The Prosauropods probably walked on thier back legs a lot, but they where really no runners, and they where lighter. I wouldn't be too suprised to see a Diploticus walk a few feet on its back legs, and by feet I mean steps. Remember, with sauropods, they would have to support thier torso, but thier tail is on the ground, which takes out a fair amount of weight.
Rex Fan 684
MemberCompsognathusSep-01-2013 2:45 PMThe theory that Spinosaurus walked on all fours is nothing new. The reason it's not talked about much is because most scientists find it unlikely. As far as Spinosaurus living in water it's whole life, unlikely. It had the most land based life of any spinosaur. You can only get so big and still walk on two legs. All the other big theropods max out at 7-10 tons. What that tells me, is that the heaviest an animal can be and still walk on two legs is 7-10 tons. That's one reason why I think Spinosaurus weighed no more than 7 or so tons.
"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names."
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Deltadromeus
MemberCompsognathusSep-01-2013 2:54 PMI agree,10 tons is about as much as you get for a theropod.
DinoFights
MemberCompsognathusSep-01-2013 4:18 PMSpinosaurus' arms have never been found, but if they were I imagine they would be just as proportionately long as any spinosaur's, nearly as long as their legs.
It's either
1. Spinosaurs walked quadrupedally quite often
2. The weight limit for bipeds is higher than we thought
3. Spinosaurus was far lighter than any other spinosaur or even dinosaur period in build
4. Spino was smaller than we thought and just had a big skull
5. Spino spent almost all of its adult life in water.
1. Is possible but considered unlikely, 2. is probable, 3. Is very highly unlikely, 4. is usually only considered true by extreme Spino haters, 5. has been proven false by isotopic ratio analysis.
Have you noticed that the bigger spinosaurs are, the bigger their sails/ridges? Irritator had a tiny ridge on its back, Baryonyx had a moderate ridge, Suchomimus had a tall ridge, Horror Mouth is rumored to have a pretty tall ridge, Spinosaurus has the tallest. Maybe it had something to do with helping hold their weight in a position that relieved stress on bones and joints?
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Rex Fan 684
MemberCompsognathusSep-01-2013 4:38 PMDipoloducus was 80-100 ft long, but weighed only 10-20 tons. Deltadromeus was 25-30 ft long, yet it weighed only 1-1.5 tons, 2 at the absolute most.
Light-Weight dinosaurs have been found. Spinosaurus may be one of them.
"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names."
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DinoFights
MemberCompsognathusSep-01-2013 4:57 PM10-20 t is for smaller Diplodocus species, not D. hollorum, which weighed at least 75 tons. Deltadromeus is just very light and so is Bahariasaurus, which is either its closest relative or its adult form. At 40 feet a Bahariasaurus would weigh 5 t.
Spinosaurs weren't light weight though, and Spinosaurus would have to be lighter than Compsognathus, Troodon, Bahariasaurus, all the ornithomimids and even an ostrich to be under 13 tons. It would look like an anorexic snake with toothpick limbs at any less than 11.
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Deltadromeus
MemberCompsognathusSep-01-2013 5:33 PMMan, Spino must be real light. Poor Spino.
Makaveli7
MemberCompsognathusSep-01-2013 8:43 PMSpinosaurus probably was over 12 tons. No way this
[img]http://paleopedia.free.fr/image/struthiomimus.jpg[/img]
Was any heavier than this
[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-q9BDfny53M0/TwxawxCboDI/AAAAAAAAHWY/HZoiAX4rPp0/s1600/spinosaurus.png[/img]
At length parity. A 17-18 m Spino weighed at LEAST 12.5 tons.
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Rex Fan 684
MemberCompsognathusSep-01-2013 8:55 PMDinoFights, thanks for backing up my point that light-weight dinosaurs existed ;)
BTW, no offence, but ornithomimids are a little different than spinosaurs in proportions and overall size.
"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names."
―Alpha-98
DinoFights
MemberCompsognathusSep-01-2013 9:16 PMYes, but they're still overall lighter. Smaller chest, lack of ribs near the hip, slanted stomach, thin arms, thin legs, long thin tails, scrawny neck and skull is lighter than average body, powerful arms, powerful legs, thick and decent length necks, long ridges, powerful tails and a possible coating of crocodilian armor. Spinosaurs in general were rather robust, while ornithomimids were not. 12 t still seems like minimum weight for MSNM V4047.
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Tomcarterhestard
MemberCompsognathusSep-01-2013 10:41 PMLook,Spinosaurus wasn't weak,it was strong...and,it COULD HAVE defeated a T-Rex...maybe IT CAN do it,and i also believe that T-Rex was stronger and had stronger jaws and stuff,BUT...not the stronger one always win...!...probably the Spino was highly smart than the T-Rex and had so strong and sharp,huge claws...the battle's winner not always depend on strength,it can depend on the Battle environment,weight,atmosphere,height and even the LENGTH OF THE SNOUT...!...the Spino snout was larger and,it could cover more ground on the victim's body...so it may've had a tough jaw...who can say..?..maybe T-Rex or maybe Spino...50% 50%
DinoFights
MemberCompsognathusSep-02-2013 12:02 AMSpino was probably smart, being the last of spinosaur evolution and spinosaurs had fairly large cerebrums. T. Rex's was proportionately large. T. rex was as smart as an alligator, Spinosaurus likely was close to that. Both had binocular vision, both were amazingly powerful. Spinosaurus was bigger, just as fast, had deadly sharp claws, a strong bite with deeply rooted gripping teeth, powerful arms and legs, an intimidating sail, and handled T. rex sized predators on a daily basis.
Tyrannosaurus had devastating teeth, a hyper powerful bite, better sense of smell, was slightly smarter, adapted for macrophagy of land animals and had a headbutting ability.
Good match.
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x_paden_x
MemberCompsognathusSep-02-2013 12:09 AMguys... Spino and Rex fans... Listen to these kind words... Just because... someone disagrees with your opinions and may or may not have proof of it... does not mean... you get your knickers in a twist over it...
Its pointless babbling over who's right and who's wrong....
Also, The chance of them meeting would not ever... [u]EVER[/u] happen, due to the: around, maybe (failed geography class here...) 2000-5000 kilometers in between them... Thus they would never meet...
But... I know I may have pissed off some FBR spino or rex fans here so...
who wants to see spino and or rex destroy the navy? (and y'know FBR4 season 3??)
Life cannot be contained, it breaks walls, crashes through barriers sometimes painfully, but uh... Life uh, finds a way
Deltadromeus
MemberCompsognathusSep-02-2013 9:00 AMI will never say in a million (65-100 million years back in time accually) years that Spino is weak. I basically agree with DinoFights, but how did this become a Rex vs Spino debate? Basically, if a rex was to fight a Spino, then it could be over in a few seconds, or an hour, depending on who does what.
keeganwh
MemberCompsognathusSep-03-2013 1:28 AMJust needed to point out that the whole Bumble Bees shouldn't be able to fly thing is bogus. Not really that relevant to the discussion, but it's an old myth that still causes confusion and is mis-used to justify other claims. ([url=http://www.snopes.com/science/bumblebees.asp]Source[/url])
Keegan
Dinosaur.Fanatic
MemberCompsognathusSep-08-2013 2:47 PMIf there's any mention of a Spinosaur being out-bested by a Tyrannosaur, or a statement that Spino can't support itself on two legs, that's basically recipe for a Rex/ Spino debate, yes?
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DinoFights
MemberCompsognathusSep-08-2013 4:20 PMYeah because it makes Spino sound inferior.
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Dinosaur.Fanatic
MemberCompsognathusSep-08-2013 4:29 PMExactly.
"Either way, you probably won't get off this island alive."
--Alan Grant
Dinosaur.Fanatic
MemberCompsognathusSep-08-2013 4:29 PMExactly.
"Either way, you probably won't get off this island alive."
--Alan Grant
Deltadromeus
MemberCompsognathusSep-08-2013 4:55 PMI'm sayian that Spino has to be light, its not about T. rex at all. That's another discussion.
DinoFights
MemberCompsognathusSep-08-2013 5:41 PMNot necessarily. The "it has to be light" argument is based off of a hypothetical limit that isn't confirmed. Refer to the juvenile diplodocid and alleged new adult Camarasaurus footprints suggesting it ran on two legs for a good distance and Camarasaurus weighed at least 25 tons, possibly up to 45.
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Deltadromeus
MemberCompsognathusSep-08-2013 6:02 PMThere is a difference between short bursts and always on your back legs. A young diplodocus doesn't really count for much, its relly light anyways. Think of it differently. How come a Giganotosaurus isn't as thick as a T. rex? It could give it more protection against sauropod tails, and it probably doesn't jump on its prey either. If it was as thick as a T. rex, then it would be around ten tons, which no biped is thought to get too. Why? Because its just to heavy for two legs to carry. Look at the smaller dinosaurs. Most of them run faster than the big ones, and they have much smaller legs to. They are comparatively lighter, but wouldn't that mean less muscule. Yes, but the strength: weight ratio of the smaller and lighter dinosaurs is much higher than the strength:weight ratio of the bigger dinosaurs.
Rex Fan 684
MemberCompsognathusSep-08-2013 7:06 PMWhoa, Delta just went really scientific on us, haha.
I'm not even going to say anything about the whole Spinosaurus weight debate. We all know what I'd say ;)
"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names."
―Alpha-98
DinoFights
MemberCompsognathusSep-08-2013 7:14 PMIt isn't as thick because it sacrificed bulk for speed, agility, flexibility and a well balanced body, all things you need when avoiding tail whips and stomps from a 100+ foot Argentinosaurus without missing a chance at an attack.
What I'm saying is it makes no sense that one spinosaur would be thin when the rest are robust. It also happens to be the most land based and that would be a dangerous world for an animal under 12 tons, being filled with multiple species of 40+ foot giants like Carcharodontosaurus, Sauroniops, Bahariasaurus, Saurophagus (may be late jurassic actually) and even Sarcosuchus. The area Spinosaurus lived in was a lush oceany habitat with rivers and other bodies of water nearby and all dinosaurs there are adapted for ichthyophagy, excluding carcharodontosaurs and Bahariasaurus which may have ate the crocodiles or other dinosaurs.
So it stands to say that Spinosaurus spent a lot of time in water, which relieved the weight, and when on land the ridge may have had something to do with easing the weight because if you noticed, the bigger a spinosaur is, the bigger its ridge. Also, they have long arms and may have walked quadrupedally on occasion (unlikely, IMO. It would have made their claws dull) but overall I think 12.5 t is the minimum. I say 15 for MSNM v4047, but 12.5 seems reasonable. Factoring in the ridge I say 13 is good.
Not what a 17 meter Tyrannosaurus or Giganotosaurus would weigh (17 and 15-16, respectively)
Here's Spino compared to Sue
[img]http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/473/overheadskeletal.jpg[/img]
The top figure would have to be as thin as the middle to be under 12 t.
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Rex Fan 684
MemberCompsognathusSep-08-2013 7:22 PMKeep in mind Sue's weight has been recently upgraded to 9-10 tons ;)
"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names."
―Alpha-98
DinoFights
MemberCompsognathusSep-08-2013 7:50 PMThat would make Spino even heavier over 16 t.
But I don't take that figure, it's ridiculous. Sue would have to look like this
[img]http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/330/6/b/tyrannosaurus_upper_limit_size_based_on_ucmp137538_by_gunz103-d5m9psf.jpg[/img]
That's a bipedal pig with big teeth and a long tail.
This
[img]http://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/121/1/2/the_tyrant_king_tyrannosaurus_rex_by_fragillimus335-d63o5oy.jpg[/img]
Is more accurate, in my opinion.
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