Dinosaur.Fanatic
MemberCompsognathusJul-09-2013 3:09 PMAs many of you know, previously I have made it known that I think, in a Rex vs. Spino fight, the odds are in Rex's favor. I would like to publicly state that I no longer have this mindset, and I believe that Rex and Spino would have a perfectly equal, 50 - 50 chance of beating each other if pitted against each other. Of course, it is impossible that Rex and Spino would have ever come into contact, but if they could have, my new opinion stands.
Let me start with an analogy. You've got your club, and you've got your spear. When swung, the club crushes bone on impact, leaving serious, fatal damage. The swing of the club is heavy, forceful, and brutal. However, dodge the club and it takes a moment for the attacker to regain composure to swing the heavy club again. Now take, for example, the spear. The spear is light and swift, and while a puncture from a spear is not bone-crushing, it can certainly be fatal. Because the spear is so light, it can be very-easily wielded, and someone holding a long, sharp spear has a good chance of wounding / killing an opponent. However, the lightness and speed of the spear comes at a cost - they are fragile weapons, and can be easily broken.
While the person with a club has brute force and fatal impact on their side, the weight of the club can become a problem. And while the person with the spear has swiftness, speed for running and dodging, and a sharp weapon, the fragility of the spear makes the person vulnerable.
As you have probably guessed, the club represents Rex, while the spear represents Spino. After close observation of that highly controversial fight scene in Jurassic Park III, I would like to point out that, believe it or not, Rex and Spino were evenly matched. This was not some impossible feat; Spino took down Rex, end of story. Spino had the swiftness, cunning, and sharp claws and arms to take Rex down. It just so happened that Rex's brute strength and bone-crushing jaws were not enough in this instance. (Watch the scene, and you will notice that the grip Rex has on Spino's neck at the beginning is shallow and higher up along the top of the neck. Spino, on the other hand, might not have had the bite force to break Rex's neck, and the fragility of his spine could have been a hinderance, but he certainly had the combined neck strength and arm force to twist Rex's neck and kill him.)
All this to say, I would like to make two conclusions. For one, I believe that in a real fight, because Rex and Spino are so evenly matched, this fight should have gone on MUCH longer. If neither predator could overcome the other, it would eventually be environmental pressures that killed one of them (one dino trips, a landslide occurs, etc.). Second, I believe it was not Spino, but Rex, that was poorly executed in the fight scene. We saw no forceful charge on Rex's part, only a slow stride towards Spino. Like many from Team Rex have pointed out, Rex could very well have charged and butted into an opponent, or at least bit down in a more vulnerable spot, like the flank or underbelly. Thus, I do not believe that Rex's full glory was shown in Jurassic Park III, and I think everyone will agree with me on that.
Just voicing my opinion. Feel free to comment!
"Either way, you probably won't get off this island alive."
--Alan Grant
Rex Fan 684
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 10:11 AMAlligators have a wider, shorter skull. Not Crocs.
[img]http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/alligator-sunning.jpg[/img]
Gator
[img]https://www.defenders.org/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/american-crocodile-tomas-castelazo-wc.jpg[/img]
Croc
Alligators have a stronger bite force on the average than Crocodiles.
[img]http://www.dailywhat.org.uk/media/108435/t%20rex%20skull.jpg[/img]
Rex Skull
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Spinosaurus_skull.jpg[/img]
Spino Skull
Do you see what I'm getting at?
"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names."
―Alpha-98
Dinosaur.Fanatic
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 11:37 AM@Deltadromeus -- That's cool! I have almost all the books. I always enjoy the strips where Calvin imagines himself as a dinosaur rampaging across town, as well as the Spaceman Spiff adventures on alien planets.
@Rex Fan -- While Spino's bite force might not have been as forceful as Rex's, I hope I've made my point that Spino has plenty of other advantages, and is equally matched against Rex.
"Either way, you probably won't get off this island alive."
--Alan Grant
Deltadromeus
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 11:44 AMRex Fan, True, say T. rex is an American Alligator, and say Spino is a Nile crocodile. I read that the larger crocodiles have a larger bite force, and the 11.5 American alligator is smaller than the 14 foot Nile crocodile, and has a lower bite strength. Now T. rex is not an alligator or even has some features, but Spino is like a crocodile, and the saltwater crocodile has the largest bite force recorded. Only beaten by T. rex.
Rex Fan 684
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 12:10 PMI get what you mean. I just thought I should point out the Gator, Croc thing. And yes, I'm sure Spino had a decent bite too. Maybe in the 2 tons range. T-rex just has the stronger one.
"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names."
―Alpha-98
Deltadromeus
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 12:13 PMI'm thinking more 3-4 tons.
Spinosaurus Rex
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 12:38 PMPaden, why didnt you state that Spinosaurus also could use its feet ? Im really sure that it could, not trying to be a dick or anything, but if you want to state your opinion, just say " in my opinion" or " I think", just so it wont cause contraversy with anybody. So, like i said, not trying to be mean, just make what your trying to say in a way that wont cause contraversy.
Rex Fan 684
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 12:45 PMYou can believe that. That's ok.
In a nutshell, Spino is the slasher and Rex is the crusher. Both are effective predators in their respective environments and should they ever meet, the battle would be both titanic and evenly-matched.
[img]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090712205506/jurassicpark/images/0/06/JP3-DeadT-Rex.jpg[/img]
Long live the Pharaoh
[img]http://cache.desktopnexus.com/thumbnails/1268389-bigthumbnail.jpg[/img]
And all hail the king!
"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names."
―Alpha-98
Deltadromeus
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 1:47 PMReverse that, all hail the pharaoh, and long live the king. And you will all die because the raptors will sneak up on you and eat you.
Rex Fan 684
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 1:57 PMWhat is with you and raptors! haha
"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names."
―Alpha-98
Dinosaur.Fanatic
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 2:31 PM@Spinosaurus Rex -- Don't take this the wrong way, but a point can be expressed without the language. Let's keep it clean.
I agree with you, I think the crew of FBR should take ALL the strengths of Spino (and Rex) into consideration. The feet are certainly one of them; if Rex can use his feet, why can't Spino?
"Either way, you probably won't get off this island alive."
--Alan Grant
Dinosaur.Fanatic
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 2:38 PMCheck it out -- Rex has a terrible grip on Spino's neck. Misrepresentation of Rex, eh Jack Horner? With a clumsy move like that, no wonder the fight ended so fast.
[img]http://images.wikia.com/jurassicpark/images/a/a8/Hqdefault.jpg[/img]
"Either way, you probably won't get off this island alive."
--Alan Grant
Rex Fan 684
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 2:44 PMAin't that the truth. The more and more I look at this fight scene in particular, the more I think it's just what Jack Horner wanted.
"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names."
―Alpha-98
Deltadromeus
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 2:45 PM@Rex Fan, the thing with me and raptors is that Utahraptor is my faovorite dinosaur.
@Everyone else, I agree with dino fanatic, if T. rex can use his feet, so can Spino. T. rex also has those little arms that can lift 400+ pounds. So T. rex can actually use them in combat. Say Spino is biting you and he is really close, those nasty T. rex meat hooks will cause some damage, or at least a distraction.
Dinosaur.Fanatic
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 2:50 PMWhoa - I have to disagree with that. First, there is no way Rex could lift 400+ pounds with puny arms and two-fingered hands. Second, you'd have to be WAY up close to be damaged by them.
Scientists all over the world have concluded that T-Rex's front limbs were most likely useless. The only arms I can think of that are MORE useless are those of Carnotaurus.
"Either way, you probably won't get off this island alive."
--Alan Grant
Rex Fan 684
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 2:57 PMActually, scientists around the world have concluded that they can lift about 450 lbs. That said, I don't know if they would be effective in combat.
"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names."
―Alpha-98
Deltadromeus
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 3:13 PMThose arms, dino fanatic, are three feet long.
Brett McIntyre
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 4:01 PMI am actually very glad the spino was "the winner" in this battle because when you grow up you get introduced to the t-rex and believe it is the strongest dinosaur but then after watching this it is cool to know there is another dinosaur that could compete with the t-rex
Lord Vader
MemberTyrannosaurus RexJul-10-2013 4:37 PMRex's arms may have been 3 feet long, but they were still pretty useless on something so big. It probably used it's arms to help it stand up, and maybe if it was carrying something extremely heavy and needed extra help. I remember hearing Rex could carry about 5 tons in its jaws at a time. If Rex could lift 450 pounds in each arm, imagine how much Spino could lift in each.
Jack of all trades. Master of none
Dinosaur.Fanatic
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 4:49 PMGood point. I agree, Mr Happy. I can see Rex being able to help it stand. I just really can't believe Rex would be able to lift that much weight with two fingers.
@Brett -- Totally agree! That was my thought the first time I watched JPIII when I was like four.
"Either way, you probably won't get off this island alive."
--Alan Grant
Lord Vader
MemberTyrannosaurus RexJul-10-2013 5:01 PMI remember hearing one time that Rex could hold up to 500 pounds in each arm, but I don't see much past 200-250 pound each. Nice example withe the spear and club. You said the fight in JP 3 was evenly matched, but wasn't Rex a sub-adult? I don't know about Spino. Was it also sub-adult?
Jack of all trades. Master of none
Dinosaur.Fanatic
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 5:04 PMWell, there's really no way to tell. Assuming they were the same age, they were even.
"Either way, you probably won't get off this island alive."
--Alan Grant
Lord Vader
MemberTyrannosaurus RexJul-10-2013 5:08 PMIf they were even in terms of size and age, then in JP 3 Spino would have had the combat experience because Rex, being a scavenger (according to Horner), probably wouldn't have fought at all in it's life.
Jack of all trades. Master of none
Dinosaur.Fanatic
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 5:26 PMSo are you saying that Spino had the advantage in JPIII? I just simply ignore Jack Horner's scavenger theory and assume that Rex had just brought down the kill himself in that scene. Why someone would jump to the conclusion that Rex was a full-time scavenger, I'll never know.
"Either way, you probably won't get off this island alive."
--Alan Grant
Lord Vader
MemberTyrannosaurus RexJul-10-2013 5:35 PMI didn't mean it that way. Maybe Spinosaurus had more combat experience. Horner is a little off if you ask me. I like to think that Rex brought down the dinosaur he was eating himself too. You are right that the fight should have been longer. I wonder how JP 3 would have been if Spielberg directed that one too.
Jack of all trades. Master of none
Dinosaur.Fanatic
MemberCompsognathusJul-10-2013 5:39 PMProbably a whole lot better! ;)
"Either way, you probably won't get off this island alive."
--Alan Grant
Carnosaur
MemberCompsognathusJun-11-2014 9:22 AMI always thought Rex's grip on Spino's neck looked shallow at best. Never looked quite right to me...
I've heard both of them were sub-adults, but that's just cuz their sizes are listed as smalle then the norm associated with them. Neither shared the characteristics of sub-adult animals.
Nature doesn't deceive us; it is we who deceive ourselves.
Godzillasaurus
MemberCompsognathusJun-11-2014 11:56 AMRemember that it is just a movie.
Besides, didn't you guys already proclaim that this debate was "dead"?
Spinosuchus
MemberCompsognathusJun-11-2014 12:30 PM@Dinosaur.Fanatic for the first page, spinosaurus' sail would definitely be a hidnerance to its movement. You are talking about an enlarged, probably at least somewhat heavy spinal column on the creature's back which was not intended for any such purpose aside from maybe intimidation, courtship, and POSSIBLY thermoregulation. There is no way the sail would at all make it more aerodynamic if that is what you are saying
Second, spinosaurus would not be catching small, swift fish. Instead, as what its anatomy seems to indicate, it will be going after larger and more powerful fish, albeit at least somewhat swift and agile in the water. Contrary to popular belief, spinosaurus would NOT be hunting small trout-sized fish. As for its hunting style, it would likely be an ambush hunter most of all; it did not need such immense speed to be able to hunt, because it was a piscivore. As long as it could catch and maintain a strong grip on fish, it would do fine
Spinosuchus
MemberCompsognathusJun-11-2014 12:34 PM"In a nutshell, Spino is the slasher and Rex is the crusher. Both are effective predators in their respective environments and should they ever meet, the battle would be both titanic and evenly-matched.:
-Spinosaurus was not a slasher at all. It definitely appeared so based on its role in JP3, but in reality it was not a "slasher" at all. Tyrannosaurids were generally heavily-built crushing animals (especially those with broadened jaws like tyrannosaurus), I'll give you that, but a "slasher" (by your definition) would be a predator that possesses teeth and jaws suited to do so. An example would be allosaurus, ceratosaurus, or megalosaurus (all not very cosely related, but to give you an idea of how much a "slashing" morphology differentiated). Spinosaurus was a gripper of fish
"Accually, the best kind of tooth design, besides serrated railroad spike, is conical. A slashing tooth makes a clean slice, while, if a conical tooth moves up or down through flesh, it will make an ugly, open, most likly to get infected wound, but it takes a lot of force to move it."
This is false and opinionated, sorry to say. Whether or not a tooth shape is defined as "the best" relies on what kind of food items that said animal is evolved to eat. Spinosaurus, as many know, had pointed conical teeth ideal for piercing into the hides of fish. In which case, THAT is the best kind of tooth morphology for that lifestyle. If the common prey type was larger terrestrial animals, a recurved and sharper-edged tooth ideal for slashing and ripping would be most beneficial. So really, it depends on prey type and hunting style, not just "feeling". And also, a conical tooth like we see in spinosaurus would not 1. create huge gaping wounds alone, or 2. need that much force to drive it (depending on how sharp and slender it is). Conical teeth are not designed for creating large wounds, and in spinosaurus' case they were ideal for deep penetration (they were quite slenderized and sharp, unlike the most prominent conical dentition you see in animals like deinosuchus or sarcosuchus)
Carnosaur
MemberCompsognathusJun-11-2014 7:13 PMSpino's jaws were adept at gripping and tearng, its rostrum rather robust and resistant to lateral forces. This came in handy when tackling the twenty foot long, 1.5 ton onchopristis and the equally as massive Mawsonia.
While not like that of Deinosuchus or Sarcosuchus, Spinosaurus' jaws bear a resemblance to those of the false gharial.
The false gharial feeds on fish, but it also takes mammals up to the size of small deer. Now, if we use this comparison, Spinosaurus would almost certainly take small hadrosaurs and such as well as the giant sawfish.
Also, I no longer believe that the neural spines of Spinosaurus supported a sail. They aren't as close together as those of dimetrodon, another famous sailbacked animal.
I have more to this argument, but i want to see what yoy guys have to say!
Nature doesn't deceive us; it is we who deceive ourselves.