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Are Triceratops and Torosaurus the Same Dinosaur?

Lord of the Spinosaurs

MemberCompsognathusOctober 24, 20148512 Views14 Replies

One of the biggest debates raging upon paleontologists is the identity of Triceratops and its larger relative and less-known relative, Torosaurus. Early Paleontologists said "They can't be the same, one has holes in its frill and the other does not." So they thought the two were their own different genus's. But in recent years we have reconsidered that somewhat childish statement, especially one of Americas most famous paleontologists, Jack Horner. Jack Horner and his colleagues have studied these two horn faced dinosaurs and have come to a conclusion: they are one species. They argue that Triceratops is just a sub-adult Torosaurus, and I, personally, am convinced. First of all if an animal is a juvenile there bones will be very "spongey", and Jack Horner and his team have cut into Triceratops bones and found that it is very "spongey" inside. And when they cut into Torosaurus bones they find that it is very compressed inside unlike Triceratops. Paleontologists have also found many juvenile Triceratops while they have found no juvenile specimens of Torosaurus. Also, Jack Horner and his team have found places in the frill of Triceratops that are very thin and are in the same places where the holes are in the frill of Torosaurus. So if this is true, they must find some sort of "Toroceratops", right? Well they have, its called "Nedoceratops", this guy has very small holes in its frill and the size of its frill is in-between that of Triceratops and Torosaurus. All of this has pointed to one conclusion, Triceratops and Torosaurus (and also Nedoceratops) are all one species in different growth stages, Triceratops is the sub-adult, Nedoceratops is the transitional form, and Torosaurus is the adult. But since Triceratops was named the first out of these three the genus will still be named Triceratops. But one of the biggest holes in Jack Horner's theory is the fact that much more Triceratops skeletons have been found compared to Nedoceratops and Torosaurus, and usually adults are much more common than juveniles, so this has yet to be explained by Jack Horner. All though it is possible that skeletons of Triceratops with the head missing are actually those of Torosaurus or Nedoceratops, but we will never know for sure. Anyways let me know what you thought of this post, are you convinced that they were one Dinosaur? Or do you still think they are three separate species? Thanks!

 

There is no such thing as a pure predator. A meat-eater is eit

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Something Real
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LORD OF THE SPINOSAURS - This has always been a very hot and extremely interesting topic for debate! For my part, after having reviewed the various findings and the manner in which they're presented, I believe that Tricerotops and Torosaurus are in fact the same species. The proof is in the puding, so to speak. Many animals throughout Earth's history have evidenced strange and sometimes drastic physiological changes over the course of their lives; it would come as no surprise to me if ancient life-forms also underwent alterations to their anatomy as they progressed in age. Now, that doesn't mean that I am 100% positive that Triceratops and Torosaurus are the same animal. It very well may be that they are separate by a considerable degree; there's no way to be absolutely certain with extinct fauna of such age. However, I'm fairly confident that they constituted the same creature over various life stages.

    This was a very neat topic to consider! Thank you so much for bringing it forward for our consideration! :)

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Lord Vader
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This has been done before, but nonetheless, always an interesting topic. I don't know much about stuff when it comes down to the science, like bone density and the length of this bone compared to this bone, so it's always an interesting read for me. 

 

With the information provided, that is quite a bit of evidence to prove they are the same animal. Perhaps very few trike individuals actually made it to adulthood. Maybe they could have reproduced prior to adulthood, and thats why there are so many of them. Can't explain what killed them though. Predators, natural disasters, drowning, falling, rivals, starvation (massive herds, the strongest eat first, the weaker members could starve), and so on. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't trike fossils been found farther north where Toro fossils haven't been found, and Toro farther South where no trike fossils have been found?

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Sci-Fi King25
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^ I'm not sure about Trike fossils farter north than Toro fossils, but Toro fossils have been found farther south than Trike fossils.

 

I don't believe they were the same.

 

“Banana oil.”- George Takei, Gigantis: The Fire Monster

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Tyrant king
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I remember that I read somewhere that they are not the same animal. I will try to find the website and show you guys. I can't see these being the same since they both have diffrent frills and body sizes, plus they were found I'm different areas and from what I herd they lived seperatly from each other. This kind of like pachycephlosaurus dracorex and stigmoloch, which are all the same animal says jack Horner. I again disagree since they would not go through such dramatic and intense changes in head structure. Pachy would of had a smooth done head with some little numbs and spikes around the edges while  dracorex has a head full of spikes which is way to much of a change in head gear. Never mind this I may make a thread about it later. Triceratops and torosaurus have different frills. Toro has the largest frill of any ceratopsian, larger then triceratops which means that they can't be the same species because trike couldn't change his frill size and shape that late in life. To me they are different species and always will be. IMHO.

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Lord of the Spinosaurs
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Well Jack Horner has found a juvenile Triceratops that was about a year or two in age when it died. And this juvenile Triceratops did not really even have a frill at all. And when they cut into the bones they found it was even more spongey inside than the bones of an adult Triceratops. This means that dinosaurs skulls changed in shape as they aged. And this also points to the fact that Dracorex, Stigmoloch, and Pachycepalosaurus are the same dinosaur,  especially because it was spongey inside Dracorex and Stigmoloch and because Pahchycepalosaurs are close relatives of the ceratopsoids. Also birds like the cassowary gow through changes in there skull shape, male cassowarys are born without a crest but as they age it grows, and the cassowary IS a dinosaur.

 

There is no such thing as a pure predator. A meat-eater is eit

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Tyrant king
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Yes but the cassowary does not completely Change skull size and shape as with Draco, stigi, and pachy. And torosaurus and trike are similar in size do there wouldn't have been enough time to change the frill size and shape. The reason jack Horner found the sponginess inside the bones of the young trike is because it was in its developmental stage in life.

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Rex Fan 684
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The big thing for me is the fact that Horner thinks Triceratops is the immature Torosaurus. How does that make sense when Triceratops is the larger of the two? I'd say their different species.

"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names." ―Alpha-98
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Lord of the Spinosaurs
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I swear Torosaurus was bigger than Triceratops.

 

There is no such thing as a pure predator. A meat-eater is eit

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Rex Fan 684
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Triceratops was around 8-9 meters long and 5-7 tons while Torosaurus was 7-8 meters long and 2-4 tons...

 

http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/herbivorousdinosaurs/p/torosaurus.htm

 

http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/herbivorousdinosaurs/p/triceratops.htm

"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names." ―Alpha-98
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Rex Fan 684
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Here's a very interesting article on the matter...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17192624

"Men like me don't start the wars. We just die in them. We've always died in them, and we always will. We don't expect any praise for it, no parades. No one knows our names." ―Alpha-98
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Tyrant king
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Thanks rex fan, I couldn't post a link. And lord of the spinosaurus check your PMs.

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Raptor-401
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Personally I think they were the same animals, but that's just me. When I watched the TedTalk with Jack Horner about this subject it made sense to me, so personally I believe in it.

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Alphadino65
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Personally, I lean towards them being separate genera because of the skull shape.  Off the top of my head, Triceratops horridus was the only ceratopsian to have a fully solid frill, and with Tyrannosaurus running around, it would be easy to say that the frill came in handy when protecting its neck.  Other ceratopsians' frills had those large holes, which don't make good shiels since the only things a tyrannosaur or other predator would bite through would be connective tissue, some fat, and skin.  Perhaps Triceratops was hunted more by Tyrannosaurus than Torosaurus?

 

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I Meme Everything
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^Concur. Also, if Triceratops is a juvenile Torosaurus, why would Toro have holes in its frill while the Trike has solid bone? I just find this evidence to prove the argument that they are the same species vague and unconvincing.

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