Carnosaur
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 1:11 PMSomething i had to do for my Paleoecology class, as these new remains have caused quite a bit of a stir in the Paleontological community.
Spinosaurus Aegyptiacus (Spine Lizard from Egypt)
This nice little image i'm about to show you,you all have seen at some point.
The infamous remains bombed by allied forces in WW2, these were some of the firs - aside from dubious remains found in morroco - that we had of Spinosaurus.
It consisted of a few back vertebrate, tall neural spines, and a lower jaw fragment. The jaw had one or two teeth still in the socket, and had sensory pits at the end of it. This is a feature we see in modern crocodilians, an adaptation to detecting fish in murky water.
The jaw bone resembled that of Baryonyx Walkeri in basic morphology, and that of Suchomimus(Baryonyx?) Tenerensis too, bared a resemblance. These two species - though they may be one in the same - shared features with S. Aegyptiacus, and were the basis for size estimates since the early 1900's.
Basing off of Suchomimus Tenerensis yielded a monster. The math payed out to ~ 60 feet in length, and body mass ratios coughed up a staggering 15+ tons for S. Aegyptiacus. The reason for basing off of these two spinosaurs is
1.) they werethe only relatively complete Spinosaurs to even get a somewhat accurate size off of, and
2.) Basing off of relatives is a key component in guestimating an extinct animal's size. We use thi methology with Paleocene animals, reptiles, birds, etc. using extant mmals and reptiles.
Below is a skeletal with the hypothetical reconstruction of S. Aegyptiacus, based on B. Walkeri and S. Tenerensis, along with Irritator Challengeri( mainly skull components)
So, the use of B. Walkeri and S. Tenerensis was absolute in theory, but new fossil remains have showed us S. Aegyptiacus was a much different animal then previously thought.
New remains, which include a partial skeleton of a subadult(FSAC-KK11888), show us S. aegyptiacus was a predatory theropod more suited for an aquatic lifestyle.
Below is one of the first papers describing this subadult, along with other elements of the skeleton.
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=4A81EF54B8849A4!24165&ithint=file%2cpdf&app=WordPdf&authkey=!APQ3JTj2pUHFBp8
The back legs are built very densely,and are proportionally shorter then those of other land based theropods( e.g. Tyrannosaurus, Acrocanthosaurus) an adaptation we see in modern day penguins as a way of keeping buoyant in water while hunting. It has been proposed webbing was in between the toes, though this is hypothetical at best as webbing doesn't fossilize generally.
The forelimbs are very long, and though not as built with dense bone as the legs, were significantly heavier then those of other Theropods. S. Aegyptiacus has some of the longest arms of the theropods, with the exceptions of Therizinosaurus cheloniformis and Deinocheirus mirificus.
Weight displacement in S. Aegptiacus is located closer to the toso rather then over the legs as in other bipedal Dinosaurs, which suggests a locomotion that includes Quadrupedalism. It's a virtual certainty S. Aegyptiacus wasn't fully quadrupedal, as the arm bones are too thin to support the weight of the animal. A facultative knuckle-walker would make sense;Obligate quadrupedalism seems very extreme. Hartman’s post on his website(found below) makes me think that a more posterior center of mass is conceivable.
This is a feature not seen as appropriate for the other well known Spinosaurids, S. Tenerensis has rather normal sized hindlimbs and B. Walkeri seems to be similar. Giant South American species (O. Quilombensis) are thought to reach the size of S. Aegyptiacus, and perhaps shared similar features, though they are far too incomplete to say.
New sketal designs have show us old reconstructions are incorrect; The hindlimbs and pelvic region were all scaled around 27% too small. Below is a reconstruction Scott Hartman has done rather recently, and the paper explaining in further detail why previous recontructions are incorrect is to be located beneath said image.
http://www.skeletaldrawing.com/home/theres-something-fishy-about-spinosaurus9112014
In conclusion, S. Aegyptiacus, along with the other Spinosaurs, were adapted to the rivers and estuaries of their time, where they occupied a niche that no animals - outside pterosaurs and crocodilians - had taken advantage of. This 'hole' allowed this particular tree of theropods to grow to massive sizes, and as a sresult, become more and more adaptive feeders as the millenia wore on.
Size estimations for the new remains paint a very different picture then what was though in the early 2000's. A more moderate size of ~52 feet TBL, and 6-7 tons in mass are more appropriate for S. aegyptiacus. Other giant Species, such as O. quilombensis, may have a similar size re-analysis, but fossil remains are too scant to tell at this time.
Nature doesn't deceive us; it is we who deceive ourselves.
Lord Vader
MemberTyrannosaurus RexSep-13-2014 1:20 PMNice post Carno, and like it or hate it, this new Spino reconstruction is interesting.
Jack of all trades. Master of none
Carnosaur
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 1:25 PMIt took me aback the first time i saw it. More digging around on this thing suggests when S. Aegyptiacus was quadrupedal, it had a stance much like the giant ant eater( which has proportionally as long claws as those of Spino)
Just saw sci-fi king's analysis, man you miss alot when you're gone for a day..
Nature doesn't deceive us; it is we who deceive ourselves.
Lord Vader
MemberTyrannosaurus RexSep-13-2014 1:28 PMHaha, I know, it's amazing. Online every day and barely anything. Gone for a day and BOOM! A Rex vs. Spino, someone's banned, staff watching like a hawk, someone posts a whole story at once.
That was just an example of what it sometimes seems like.
No doubt Spino would be quadrupedal at least sometimes. Quite an interesting creature no matter what though.
Jack of all trades. Master of none
DinoSteve93
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 1:32 PMI defintely agree with the stated. Good job.
Proud founder of the site Theropods Wiki! www.theropods.wikia.com
Carnosaur
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 1:35 PMThe implications of this are a bit staggering too. If we had more of Oxalaia, we would be able to tell if it too was semi quadrupedal, but unfortunately we only have that lower jaw fragment..
This thing is neat. That's the first thought that pops into my head when i think of Spino now, just 'neat'. Fascinating creature, really. Also explains the niche these guys grew to fill, that's why i love this field
Nature doesn't deceive us; it is we who deceive ourselves.
Silver_Falcon
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 1:39 PMSomeone got banned? Who?
Here, have a waffle (-'.')-#
Carnosaur
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 1:44 PMNo one silver, he was using that as an analogy
Nature doesn't deceive us; it is we who deceive ourselves.
Silver_Falcon
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 1:49 PMOh, ok. I'll just, uhm, yeah...
Here, have a waffle (-'.')-#
Gojira2K
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 1:50 PMI agree with everything stated here. I kind like the new version of Spinosaurus. It more water based, like me.
"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self." - Ernest Hemingway.
Raptor-401
MemberAllosaurusSep-13-2014 1:57 PMVery well stated Carnosaur.
Yes, very true about being gone...
Gone for a 3-week trip in Mexico, don't miss anything, gone for a hour walk in the park, SB is spammed with fighting, discussions being made calling out other members, everyone cussing, Rex vs. Spino brought up in a disucussion, all mods come onto this forum...
Quite crazy.
IT'S TIME TO DU-DU-DU-DU-DUEL!!!
Carnosaur
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 2:05 PMI'll be doing a revised "Top ten largest theropods" with descriptions and what not within the next few days, some of it may suprise you guys..
Nature doesn't deceive us; it is we who deceive ourselves.
Lord Vader
MemberTyrannosaurus RexSep-13-2014 2:07 PMLooking forward to that list Carno
Jack of all trades. Master of none
Tyrant king
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 2:40 PMcongrats on 5000 posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
UCMP 118742
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 3:05 PMAh yes, now Hartman's version is something I can truly and utterly agree with. Very well done Carnosaur, especially the build-up to the main point of this topic.
Keep in mind that many people have died for their beliefs; it's actually quite common. The real courage is in living and suffering for what you believe in. -Brom-
Tyrant king
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 3:49 PMCarnosaur
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 3:58 PMTrue, but we don't have as proportionally long arms as those of Spinosaurus. If we had those long of arms, they would reach down to our knees, where in reality, they only go a little past the hips. The center of mass in Spinosaurus appears to be more forward oriented then that of Suchomimus or other Spinosaurs, with the weight being mainly towards the front of S. Aegyptiacus.
Long arms would have prevented Spino from falling on his face, essentially. It helped balanced the animal out, and in turn a quadrupedal means of locomotion would be ideal.
It's not fully quadrupedal, but there's no doubt really it spent some time walking on all fours
Nature doesn't deceive us; it is we who deceive ourselves.
Tyrant king
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 4:01 PMAllotitan
MemberCompsognathusSep-13-2014 4:20 PMInteresting post Carnosaur.
I must say that is interesting how it may have walked on four legs.
Carnosaur I can't wait for the new Longest Theropod List
When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Tell life I don't want you're damn lemons, and then squeeze them into life's eyes!
Alphadino65
MemberTriceratopsSep-13-2014 4:22 PMFirst time I got to comment on this, and WOW!! My perception of Spino is completely blown!!! I was actually debating to myself whether it was probable or not that Spino had webbing between its toes a few days before the news broke. Then I see the new posture and I was in shock.
The one thing that seemed off were the legs and hips. There were several images where it showed Spino not only walking on 4 limbs, but that the top of the pelvis was actually as tall as us, showing that it was impossible to stand on it's front legs. The re-scaled size looks better, I honestly still see it as a bear/anteater with it's hind legs longer than the front ones. The image showed Spino more like a mutated crocodile instead of a spinosaur.
Something Real
MemberTyrannosaurus RexSep-13-2014 6:43 PMCARNOSAUR - This was a very nice and exceptionally well-presented piece! I agree with many of your observations - quite intuitive! I personally greatly enjoy the new rendition of the Spinosaurus. The fact that it is now strongly believed to be a semi-bipedal animal (rather than bipedal) is quite compelling. Not only that, but the animal's new body structure is amazingly elegant and intimidating all at once! It looks almost like an ancient water dragon - a stunning creature! I believe the Spinosaurus is now one of my top three favorite dinosaurs. :)
Evan123
MemberCompsognathusSep-14-2014 3:45 AMNice post, I'm loving this new look of spinosaurus, it's so unique and fascinating, great job!
Sci-Fi King25
MemberAllosaurusSep-14-2014 6:40 AMNice post! I fully agree with the things stated in this article, and I love the Hartman reconstruction!
“Banana oil.”- George Takei, Gigantis: The Fire Monster
lxlplictz
MemberCompsognathusSep-14-2014 6:51 AMWow great post! spinosaurus sure has changed a lot, from a allosaurus head to a semi bipedal! How ever does anyonew know how fast and agile it was on land?